The aftermath of Wentworth….A theory.

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SPOILERS: DON’T READ IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHO LORD JOHN GREY IS!

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I’ve been having some interesting conversations  on Twitter.   Some are light-hearted, some educational and some downright naughty (you know who you are innuendo slingers). One day, I  attempted to have a serious discussion about Lord John and Jamie and discovered very quickly that Twitter is not the ideal format for such discussion.  Threads get confused and it is easy to be misunderstood, not to mention that only having 140  characters stinks!

This particular thread was discussing  Lord John Gray and his inherent sexiness.  I stupidly asked if anyone thought that Jamie was tempted by Lord John?  The resounding and emphatic answer was NO!  Upon reflection, I believe that “tempted” was not  exactly the right word for the thought I was trying to express.  Hey, it happens.  I didn’t mean tempted as in Jamie wanting to…I…well…I have a theory.  Let me explain.

A lot of things that happen in Outlander are mysterious to the characters.  They didn’t have the benefit of  21st century science.  They didn’t have environmental studies (begging the pardon of our natural philosopher Mr. Stern ) or doctors trained in advanced medical knowledge and procedures (if they had Claire’s abilities wouldn’t have seemed so unusual),  nor do they have a working  knowledge of psychology.   Even Claire’s knowledge is colored in shades of 1940.  A lot has happened since WWII.

In Outlander, Jamie is raped by another man.  What this act does to the male psyche  could not have been understood by the people of Scotland in 1743.  This lack of understanding and the social and moral atmosphere of the time would have made this event even more horrific for Jamie.  Adding  to the horror is the man doing the raping, a sadist named Black Jack Randall, a man who finds his pleasure in the total domination of another.  Jamie naively believes that he will be able to remain unaffected by Black Jack Randall’s actions.  He knows there will be pain involved and he will feel repulsed, but he believes he can remain emotionally distant.  His illusions are shattered within minutes.

Obviously, Ms. Gabaldon  is knowledgable of the damage done to the male psyche by rape because Jamie exhibits the symptoms.   The damage done to Jamie physically would  heal.  What is more difficult to heal, of course,  are the wounds that cannot be seen.  The aftermath of Wentworth has left Jamie with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.  The reader can identify several scenes in the book where Jamie exhibits PTSD symptoms.  We witness Jamie’s reactions to re experiencing the rape.  He has nightmares,  he has flashbacks, intrusive and upsetting memories,  and intense distress when something triggers  a memory of the event. All of these things are expected reactions to experiencing an unpredictable event where a person’s safety is threatened and they feel helpless. Jamie’s experience is even more complicated because his compliance is  being assured with a threat to his wife’s life.  He is keeping his word to give Claire time to get away, “He thinks you are weak, I know that you are not…” Even the events immediately after his rescue and his illness at the abbey follow the progression of  PTSD.

We notice that when Claire is treating him by the fire, although physically beaten up, Jamie doesn’t appear to be that different emotionally.  His personality including the ability to joke when things are serious seems to be intact.   After a traumatic event, the body and mind go into shock.  This is why we don’t really see a change in Jamie right away.  But, then comes the abbey and Jamie’s deterioration.  This is also typical behavior for PTSD suffers.  With time the shock fades.  He begins to process what has happened to him and day by day  Jamie gets worse not better.  Without help and understanding the prognosis for returning to “normal” and being able to function in a relationship with a spouse is practically nil. The fact that he was able to have a functioning  relationship with Claire?  A miracle.

Now don’t get me wrong, I believe there was some sound scientific theory behind Claire’s rescue attempt.  She used his own weakened and traumatized  mind to set him free.  It was sort of like a version of aversion therapy.   She exposed him to what he feared, but this time…he got to fight back.  His Highland Warrior spirit fought its way home.  It makes sense, but the fact that it worked.  Adoration.  A still quiet voice.  A miracle.

So, what you might be asking,  has this got to do with Lord John? Well, this is where my theory part comes into play.  What we haven’t talked about is the part a lot of rape victims don’t talk about, physical arousal during a rape.   This seems to be the aspect of the rape that  causes Jamie the greatest mental conflict. This is the part that causes him to cry out in anguish, “… he hurt me -hurt me badly- while he did it, but it was an act of love to him. And he made me answer him- damn his soul! He made me rouse to him!”  The hand bunched into a fist and struck the bedframe with an impotent rage that made the whole bed tremble.” The guilt, rage and shame that Jamie expresses over his physical arousal and ( if we can believe Black Jack)  orgasms at the hands of his rapist causes Jamie to question his identity.  I’m not saying that he questions his sexuality; he is hetero.  However, I do believe for the first time,  Jamie isn’t sure he can trust himself.  He feels betrayed by his own body and mind.  Adding to the confusion is  BJR’s  use of pain and his constantly talking about Claire.   Jamie needs Claire desperately, but because of the clever sadist’s techniques he cannot even stand for her to touch him.  We know that Jamie recovers enough to be with  Claire and they go on to live their lives.  But….I propose this idea.  Jamie never fully trusts himself again.

Hiding in a cave for years, then locked away in prison with his hands shackled, Jamie is starved for human touch.  In one of the later books, he even admits to Claire that he wanted the men at Ardsmuir to touch him, in fact, he longed for it.  There isn’t anything to suggest that he meant that sexually, but later it gives Claire pause to wonder.  So….given his touch deprivation and his mistrust of his own mind and body….Lord John Grey makes Jamie more than angry when he touches his  hand…he scares him.  I think this was what the plaid/flaying scene was about.  Jamie was putting a wall between himself and Lord John.  Later, on the way to Helwater,  Jamie barely acknowledges  LJG, but there is a scene at the inn that I think speaks volumes. Jamie is lying on the floor wrapped in his plaid as far away from Lord John as he can get.  Like every other night of this trip,  he is hyper-vigilante.  He hears every move, every rustle, every noise Lord John makes.   Jamie is deeply resentful that Lord John makes him feel this way.  Makes him feel anxiety.  Makes him remember that he cannot trust himself.  By dawn,  his resentment has become full-blown rage and he wants  LJG  to make a “disgraceful” move, so that he will have an excuse to vent his frustrated rage…at himself.   The fact that Lord John is an intelligent, articulate, honorable man, I’m sure only makes Jamie seethe.   Lord John pushes Jamie’s self-image, self-trust  buttons.  So, I guess I’m not saying that Jamie IS tempted by Lord John, but he’s afraid he might be.  Whew!

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73 thoughts on “The aftermath of Wentworth….A theory.”

  2. Very reasonable, indeed. Anything that leads one to question everything they know about themselves can be terrifying- been there! Astute and clear, nicely done.

  3. I don’t know though that this has to do with LJG, per se, though. Jamie’s sense of self-security was permanently shattered. I think LJG makes him uncomfortable not _only_ because Jamie is afraid of himself and how he might feel (either emotionally or physically), but _also_ after being traumatized in such a way I think he has a hard time wrapping his brain around someone of LJG’s orientation who isn’t a _sadist_. I don’t know that he has a fear of gay men exactly, I think he (unconsciously perhaps?) associates male homosexuality with cruelty and pain and fear now. Remember, he thought the Duke was amusing and uncomfortable, but at the time of his youth the Duke didn’t disgust or frighten him. After his rape and torture at BJR’s hands, that’s when things shifted so badly.

    • I think_ we agree. Because of the rape his reactions have changed. I agree that it is are most probably unconscious. I think LJG just had the misfortune to be attracted to this traumatized man.

  4. Rowan

    I agree wholeheartedly. The rape was more than a physical event. BJR forced Jamie to feel some pleasure and it made him feel even more violated that he could have been by the physical act alone. He was shackled by his love for Claire thinking he would die anyway so he submitted to save her. Then he felt some pleasure and release which is the ultimate betrayal of his body. I agree that this shook his identity more than any other thing and caused him to question himself. It also created a label in his mind for all other gay men. LJG disrupted that label by being a good and honorable man and this confused Jamie, I am sure. How can a man so firm in his convictions deal with that dichotomy? I am sure LJG caused no amount of anguish by being a good person in general but towards Jamie in particular. I think JLG’s friendship is what ultimately let him heal the rest of the way and recover from PTSD.

    • Yes, I didn’t even get beyond the trip to Helwater. The relationship between LJG and Jamie is fascinating. The fact the they become friends, I believe has a lot to do with who LJG is as a person. He remains honorable and decent and these are qualities that Jamie recognizes and being honorable himself, can’t ignore.

  5. Very insightful. As usual, DG goes further than simply the event, and shows us the echoes of the trauma throughout Jamie’s life. And isn’t it so true? How many of us can relate to this regarding some type of life-changing ordeal? Jamie’s PTSD is not surprising, when you think of it – female rape victims go thru the same self loathing and doubt.

  6. jomarie

    I like your insights here. I actually just re-read Outlander but I am relatively new to the Outlander series in general and I don’t think I can delve into the intricacies of the relationships just yet. I’m still trying to digest certain things, like his experience in Wentworth.

    This is going off on a slight tangent (I hope you don’t mind) but there’s something that’s been bothering me, and I wonder if you would mind giving your opinion. Jamie was physically abused terribly by BJR, and I really wonder how he could have been aroused at all. I know BJ tried to “make love” to him, but Jamie had a bone sticking out of his finger the entire time, not to mention the other broken bones in his hand. Pain from that injury alone would be all encompassing it seems to me. I’d appreciate any thoughts you have on this. Thanks!

    • Good question! I know he talked about how gentle he was and intent on arousing Jamie. This then would be followed by more pain. Different for males I THINK being directly stimulated. ?

      • jomarie

        Yes, that could be. I also did a little research; the body does release endorphins as a natural reaction to acute pain, which actually causes a release of sex hormones as well. I guess that’s as good an explanation as any! I was just thinking you’d need some serious drugs in this day and age to function with that kind of pain, but I suppose Jamie is better equipped than most to deal with it. 🙂

      • When in fight when in fight/flight mode the body is in a high state of arousal. Whether Jamie wanted it to happen or not his body would have reacted in the ways that it knew best. We know that he is very easily aroused both prior to and after a battle. I feel that this instance would have been no different.

  7. My dear Beth, it only took me a week to find this–please don’t lose respect for my intelligence; feel free to mock my technical skills. This a very well thought out, well written blog and I agree and admire almost every single word you wrote except these…. I always had a question about the part in the book where Jamie was ‘aroused’ by Black Jack. Rape is a horrifying, violent act even in the context where this one occurred so I’ve never been on board with that. I’m also not sure that Lord John scares him. I think it’s pure rage that someone he has grown to admire and has formed a friendship with (even though the man’s a redcoat and his jailer) would even hint at a sexual advance towards him. This time, he does not have to submit because he thinks Claire is dead and has no one to protect. I believe if it wasn’t for his men, he would have killed LJG right then which would have been too bad because their friendship grows to be so strong and important to them both. (I feel like I’m back in college and writing 300 words in a ‘blue book’ for extra points.) 😉 Did I pass? Are you grading on a curve?

  8. When I first submitted this I had a wonderful response from a therapist who deals with these issues. She told me that sexual arousal during rape is common and terribly devastating for the victim. Just my guess and interpretation of events with Lord John. I think that relationship becomes one of the most important in Jamie’s life. Jamie never has to be right, love that about him. His time spent with Lord John changes his perspective. Lord John is honorable and being honorable himself, Jamie recognizes it. Thanks for reading love the new memes!

    • His friendship with Lord John is my second favorite in the books, after Claire of course. I love his ‘character’ and not just ‘the’ character. LJG is such an honorable man. Thanks for the meme compliment, they are so fun and quick to do 😍

      • Jane

        I just don’t understand though why Jamie offered himself to Lord John. Was it because he thought that was what men like LJG wanted? Did he think that what was done to him at Wentworth makes him less sure of his sexuality? It is very confusing to me why he would put himself in that position again.

  9. swimmerchick2014

    I loved this Beth and your perspective on it. I think the way Diana wrote it , as raw as it was, it was very telling of Jamie’s character. He didn’t hide behind the fact that his body gave in, and he did what he had to do in order to survive. I also like the relationship between he and Lord John. I do believe Jamie loved him, but not of course in the way that Lord John wanted him to, and the fact that Lord John didn’t take him up on his offer shows how much he really did care for Jamie.

  11. Well done, Beth. I agree with you completely and have also seen Jamie’s behavior after Wentworth showing symptoms of PTSD. There are points in the subsequent books where Jamie’s behavior seems disproportionately defensive or even rigid. He is afraid of sliding down the slippery slope because of the self-mistrust.
    Not to get too far ahead , in “Written in My Own Heart’s Blood”, Jamie has a very visceral reaction to Lord John Gray’s marriage to Claire and the fact that LJG brags that he had carnal knowledge with Claire. Despite their previous friendship, this seemed to give Jamie an opportunity to punch LJG in the nose ….probably something he wanted to do for sometime to assert control in the relationship. All this, of course, is complicated by Jamie feeling beholden to Gray for raising William. It’s all very challenging and emotionally complicated for Jamie. Thanks to Diana, he is not just the two dimensional, principled romantic hero but a multi-layered human being struggling with unspeakable trauma.

    • I am loving this discussion! The complexity of the emotions in this series is amazing. I’m not sure that the reason that Jamie punched LJG was because of his “knowledge” of Claire. The punch came when LJG was explaining that is was not an act of love, but “we were both f*%king you.” I think the fact that Grey chose to satisfy his need for Jamie by taking advantage of Claire’s grief was too much for Jamie to bear. I think even the most open minded male still has a bit of fear that they have latent homosexual feelings. I don’t think a hetero male can ever understand the feelings of a gay man and that lack of understanding inspires a bit of fear and yes, a bit of hatred. The fact that this man, whose desires he can never quite understand, could use the person he loved the most in that way is abhorrent to him.

      • John did not “take advantage” Of Clair. He was as broken as she by Jamie’s apparent death and , like Clair, he used sex as a mourning and brief escape from the agony they both felt. And, by the way, Clair herself vehemently denied John had used her in “in that way”. Her description of it to Jamie did not have any element of blame for John or herself. They “knew” Jamie was dead, not that he survived. They both were violent. She hit John hard, not in self defense but in overpowering rage over her loss, as she herself said. They were both out of control because of the pain. Yes, Jamie was angry and yet he was a bit ashamed of hitting John more than once. Perhaps you have never had the experience of mourning inspiring sex, but it can. I think we can get more pleasure and also learn more about the characters when we do not oversimplify them and create some sort of false picture of virtues and faults.

    • Lord John did not brag of having “carnal relations” with Clair. He was thinking that Clair could not help telling Jamie everything and John thought it better that he get the telling over with. And he was pretty sure Jamie might kill him, but he had to tell the truth. Read that chapter again because John is an important part of Jamie’s life and if you can’t see him as the good person he was, you can’t really see the part of Jamie that can avoid hiding from truth and deal with it.

  12. Shelia desantis

    Well said. Concise. It took two readings of The Outlander Series for me to understand the effect the Black Jack rape. Whew!
    Diana is brilliant.

  13. The interesting thing to me, in all of the characters, is the fact that they all have layers. Nobody is just one, flat personality. Jamie has layers, feelings he can’t always understand, regarding many different events and has to learn to deal with them; Claire loves Jamie and knows she wants him but still, she loves Frank, and allows herself to stay in a marriage where she knows she’s being cheated on; even BJR has layers (I know, I know, everyone hates him, but still) he is this perverted, monster sadist and yet tender and loving toward his brother, and holds this little shred of humanity still…it’s the layers, the confused emotions, that sell the characters to me. That’s what makes them real. (and by “real”, I mean believable; I’m able to lose myself in the story; I don’t mean “real”, as in I think the actors are really the characters…or that these characters are real life people, which is a line, I think, some have crossed).

    • You made me chuckle with your qualifiers. 😂 I believe you! (It has got a bit crazy out there) Yes the complexity of DGs characters keeps me interested as well! Thanks for reading!

      • I’ll admit something – at the risk of being stabbed in the face with virtual knives: I really like the character of Black Jack. I just think he’s an incredibly well done character (Of course you hate him. You’re supposed to hate villains. And I think he comes across as such a broken human being, there is room for a little pity there, as well. I mean, you KNOW he knows he’s broken, and…well.) But if I dare to say this, I get stones thrown at me in righteous indignation, because LOOK WHAT HE HAS DONE. And I’m over here like…but he isn’t REAL. He hasn’t really done anything. He’s just an incredibly well-written character. That said, if I ever did meet Bloody Laoghaire Damn Her Eyes Mackenzie on the street, I’d take her down. I know she is fictional. But God, I do hate her so.

  14. Brilliant analysis. I think I had figured some of this out for myself over the years, but you did an eloquent job of putting it all together. I was going to say that I’m looking forward to seeing how this will be interpreted on screen, but really, I’m dreading it.

  15. It’s going to be very hard for me to watch the Wentworth scenes, the torture as well as the rape. I love LJG and Jamie’s relationship generally and how even Claire was somewhat jealous of it at first. I just dont get why LJG was so harsh with Jamie, the way he told him about bedding Claire, seemed so out of character to me like he wanted to hurt Jamie. I dont buy that he told Jamie cuz he knew that Claire would, to lessen Jamie’s anger at Claire. nope, just dont buy it.

  16. Blair

    Love what you wrote! Thanks for taking the time to put it down. I loved readining everybody’s thoughts! I have always wondered that while what Jamie went through was horrible and my next comment by no means makes light of what he goes through. I am always intrigued by all Claire goes through on the rape/near rape department and yet until we get to BSAA she seems to shake it offand force herself to “deal”. Even in the aftermath of that horrible scene where she is at her breaking point she seems to get herself together much like traditional male characters do and while they do help each other through the worst moments of their lives, I have always been intrigued how Diana switches traditional roles with them a great deal. For example it is usually the women who is the virgin but not in this book. So extrapolating on that idea it is usually the women (less powerful) who gets raped and has a hard time dealing until the man(more powerful) helps her. But Diana has made the most powerful character in her book live through a most brutal physical and emotional rape and the “weaker” character saves him. I always thought she was commenting on the nature of what “power” really is. Does that make any sense?

    • Yes! It does make sense! And I agree totally with the idea that Diana plays with perspectives and roles. Another reason I love her writing! Thanks for reading and commenting!

  17. Cheryl

    I love reading everyone’s perspective. It’s like we have a very large book club. Such a horrific topic to discuss, but so important to process as a reader and as a human being.

  18. Brennita

    As I read through the books, I kept thinking how very unrealistic Jamie seemed to me. I had this very sad realization that I completely believe people like BJR exist in this world, but could not believe in a Jamie. This is very shocking to me because I have a wonderful husband with many qualities of Jamie. It was just Jamie’s pension for getting into trouble and jumping into painful situations purposefully. It does make for a great stories though.

    It took several books in to feel Claire deserved Jamie. I kept thinking, couldn’t she be nice to him, throw him a bone? How hard would it be for her to just tell him how handsome he is, or how much she loved him. I know she felt guilty loving him and leaving Frank and in the last book or two her upbringing was explained, but still.. Her protection of BJR to save Frank after what he had done to Jamie… how could she really ask that of Jamie?

    • hmmm, I feel Claire does more than throw him a bone. In fact, there are some very touching scenes I just recently read one in Drums of Autumn Jamie was feeling frustrated at the fact that he believed he had nothing to offer her but hardship. She quoted the Bible to him,” Were though goest I will go,…etc..” As far as BJR, I think she knew she was asking a lot, but felt to not ask was the same as murdering Frank. Frank is truly an innocent in all of this.

  19. Vicka Spencer

    Hi Beth! Beautifully written. I share a lot of your points of view. Think JMie has huge resistance to pain, but his stubborn character help him as well. Love to read you and follow you. Love you sassenach!

  20. Amy Fann

    Best- more articulate and thoughtful dialog on Wentworth and after Wentworth I have read anywhere! Crossing my fingers that press dialog after these episodes air will be as enlightened.

    • Thank you and yes I have some of the same fears about the press. Diana does such a wonderful job creating these characters and conflicts that I would hate to see her work tainted by by press coverage. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Lots of Outlander related stuff on the blog love to have you as a regular reader.

    • Jane B.

      Thanks for sharing, as I hadn’t seen this discussion. Can’t decide if I should warn hubby about this episode, or just watch his reaction. Funny – he normally doesn’t like fiction at all, and hated that the kids loved the Harry Potter books, but now he’s like “come on, the show starts in 10 minutes” and showing me trailers for the next episode. (I think some of my Outlander girlfriends’ husbands must be talking about the show at the coffee shop.) Anyway, this discussion gives me some great talking points for what I’m sure will be an interesting long-running debate in our house.

      • Wrote this awhile ago trying to make sense of what happened in the Abbey. People must be googling Wentworth because I keep getting hits so I decided to repost. My hubby is watching too. He isn’t too sure about the explicitness already. A bit worried myself. A warning sounds good.

  22. Frances

    I am dismayed to find myself a fangirl at 72, but there it is. I read and watch everything I can find about Outlander book and show, and your blog is by far the best. Hard to believe that you just started writing because your work is so articulate as well as thoughtful, not to mention that I agree with you so far in every instance. Thank you and keep up the good work.

  23. I agree completely and I can’t think of anything to add to what you and the people who commented before me have already said except: Thank God I have found your blog!!!!

  24. heather

    This was a great read and very insightful both in the main post and the comments. I am also worried about what will come out in the press after the wentworth episode airs. It’s such a wonderful series!! Looking forward to reading the rest of your posts 🙂

  25. Lizbeth

    Hello, I am new to your blog, having been referred by DG. Your analysis is going to be very helpful when the Wentworth & abbey episodes will be seen. In the book, I treated the scenes much as I do when BJR is wicked on the tv screen. I just want to get past them as quickly as possible. But I do want to understand DG, especially when she said in a group panel that she is BJR, which she would have to be in order to write what she has. Anyway, brilliant analysis. I am going to try to widen my view and keep in mind all that has been said here. O and I want to say that Lord John is most honorable and a cherished friend of Jamie. He confessed his carnal knowledge of Claire to Jamie bc he is honorable, and he expected Jamie to kill him in all honesty, if I remember correctly.

  26. Thanks for the great blog – glad I found it. I’m getting kind of “over” the fangirl comments I’m finding elsewhere, yours is a well-written and nicely commented hangout!

    I’m very much looking forward to book 9, and seeing how things resolve between LJG and Jamie… to see if Jamie finally has the bandwidth to love LJG for all of who he is. Difficult, given his brutal experiences and the times, but if anybody can pull it off, it’d be Jamie. There are going to be some fascinating scenes ahead.

    There’s so much unfinished business in Jamie’s mind w/r/t BJR… having the last puzzle pieces fall into place with his Culloden memories of BJR’s end will likely be traumatic but will hopefully lance that festering wound. I’ll be interested to read about how Murtaugh fits into those memories… I keep hoping that an elderly Murtaugh shows up on Fraser Ridge. Silly, I know, but he didn’t explicitly die…

    I’m very much enjoying the Starz adaptation and am dreading the Wentworth scenes. I feel like they took an easy out with the Reckoning and lost a lot of the power of what happened in the book. I understand why they did it, but was and am disappointed. As shocking as the Red Wedding was for Game of Thrones viewers, I’m imagining similar reactions to Wentworth. I dread it, but like the Red Wedding, much of the rest of the storyline depends on that event. I hope they don’t sell it short.

    • I found it interesting that we REALLY don’t know exactly what happened, but enough that we know seeing it will be traumatic. I think Jamie’s helplessness and shock at his body’s betrayal would be key, but who knows what they will choose to focus on. We’ll see! And thank you for the compliments!

  27. Melanie

    I’m new to your blog and really appreciate your insight! When I first read the methods Claire used in the abbey to bring Jamie back from his despair and desire to die, I couldn’t figure out what she was doing or why she would bring the memories of what BJR did into it. I re-read it and then it occurred to me that maybe she did it to give Jamie the opportunity to fight back, since he wasn’t able to in Wentworth. You have confirmed what I was thinking – thank you! It helps to have someone else’s perspective and your blog is so well-written!

  28. NK Gutierrez

    I am also new to this blog -ove your insight-and after reading all the Outlander books and the LJG books i’ve come away with the realization that Jamie may have feelings for John that’s a bit more than friendship.For a man that has had his upbringing and experiance John Grey is an emotional and uncomfortable slap in the face.But i can see how this affection for John might have and did develop and why Jamie via insults and postering attempts to keep John at arms distance.

    And to add to what Sue said above i think the BJR incident is a spoke in the wheel in Jamie’s relationship with John.John loves Jamie selflessly,there’s no possession in it and i think a key point in the novel is bringing Claire to a point that she knows there is no threat to her from John and in some ways she facilitates and is compliant in that.More importantly,she is at a place where she accepts that,the only person who hasn’t faced their feelings about John is Jamie.

    This is usually difficult territory for me in discussions because there is such a violent reaction to anyone daring to say that Jamie might have feelings for John…..So unless Diana is is going nowhere with these hints you’d have to really have blinders on not to see it.Please note Jamie having feelings for John has nothing to do with his love for Claire at all.

    It’s funny the arguement at Helwater where Jamie told John he doesn’t believe men can love each other romantically.Ha i think Jamie’s slowly learning and wrestling with the fact that,that isn’t true.

      • I think that Beth’s observations w/r/t Jamie’s lack of self-trust and subsequent fear is key to understanding Jamie’s violent reactions to LJG’s homosexuality. Remember back to Castle Leoch when discussions of the Duke of Sandringham’s sexuality came up… it was cause for joking, laughter and some disdain, but not for violent rage. I don’t think that Jamie has feelings beyond friendship for LJG, but he’s so traumatized by the rape that he’s incapable of seeing the male/male sex act any way but through that ugly filter.

        He’s been able to get past LJG’s honesty in that regard twice (Ardsmuir and Helwater), but never with Claire involved. Perhaps William and Claire, in separate ways, can help him remember what he loves and respects about LJG.

  30. Genesislinx

    Great analysis. Unfortunately the show has devolved a bit.

    They’ve downplayed the intimacy between LJG and Jamie on the show (their kiss in Helwater and their hug when they reunited in Paris) in order to cater to fangirls and it’s unfortunate.

    There’s hardly a place to discuss the subtext of Jamie’s relationships with other people because, the fangirls shut down any meaningful or thought-provoking discussion that suggests Jamie might have complicated feelings for anyone besides Claire.

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